在这一集里188金宝搏bet亚洲的媒体播客，我们见到了不可思议的厨师AJ:主持厨师AJ生活在YouTube和AJ主厨的健康生活在Foody电视台，畅销书的作者未经加工的而且终极减肥的秘密．
在此之前,厨师AJ她是洛杉矶Santé餐厅的糕点行政主厨，在那里她以不含糖、油、盐和麸质的甜点而闻名。
在这节课中，我们将谈论食物的未来，如果人工培育的肉类提供了传统肉类的真正替代品，当然也会得到一些关于如何优化健康的植物性饮食而不牺牲味道的建议。
记录:
安娜布拉德雷:欢迎来到感性媒体播客的下一集，在这里我们将见到正在改变我们思考动物和188金宝搏bet亚洲我们的世界的方式以及与动物和世界互动方式的人。今天，我非常激动地欢迎了不起的AJ大厨，YouTube上的AJ大厨直播节目的主持人以及美食电视上与AJ大厨的健康生活，他还是畅销书的作者，很多畅销书的作者，比如未经加工的而且终极减肥的秘密．此前，AJ大厨是洛杉矶Santé餐厅的行政糕点主厨，她在那里以她的糖、油、盐和无麸质甜点而闻名。所以今天，我们将讨论食物的未来，如果栽培肉提供了传统肉类的一个真正的替代品，当然，得到一些建议，关于我们如何优化健康的植物性饮食，而不牺牲口味。非常感谢你今天来参加我们的节目，AJ主厨，我非常喜欢你和你的工作。让我们开始吧。我想多听听你的故事。那么你是如何开始以植物为基础的生活的呢?
厨师AJ:哦,男孩。所以这次旅行的主要部分就是我喜欢动物。我想这就是很多人开始讨论的地方，从伦理的角度，因为事实是，我出生于1960年，没有人谈论环境那时候你知道，我知道这是现在的热门话题全球变暖和畜牧业。但直到最近，这才成为讨论的一部分。事实上，在《餐叉胜于手术刀》大约10年前出版之前，我认为大多数人都没有真正讨论过纯素食主义或植物性饮食对人类健康的影响。所以，如果你成为素食主义者，那是因为你喜欢动物。在我成长的过程中，我一直想成为素食主义者，我认为吃动物不仅是错误的，而且我只是觉得这很奇怪。我真的做到了。我对几件事心存感激。至于我的母亲，我知道她是一个单亲母亲，她尽了她最大的努力，在1960年，我们没有尼尔·巴纳德，也没有PCRM告诉我们，我们不需要吃动物。 So you know, she thought, well, you know, if you don’t eat milk, if you don’t eat meat, you’re gonna die. But she was respectful enough that at least I didn’t have to eat anything that looked like an animal. So in other words, like, if, you know, a lot of times when you eat fish, you know, the fish is like, it’s the bones and it still has the head. And there was I mean, I would be like disgusted and sick, there would be no way. But tuna fish and a can, on a sandwich I was able to somehow ingest because it didn’t look like the animals. So like, I might be able to eat a bowl of chili, I’d had beans and some ground beef. But I couldn’t eat anything with a bone or you know me that looked like an animal so that this and this was just something how I was born because everybody around me ate animals. The other good thing was is that I am Jewish, and we were raised orthodox, which was I’m not now, I’m a nondenominational kind of person. But still, ethnically I am because I’m considered Jewish. There were animals we didn’t get to eat anyway, which is so awesome. Because in my work now with people with weight loss and food addiction, what we know is you only can develop taste preferences for foods you habitually eat. And the only really taste preference that human has is for breast milk, everything else is learned so because I never ate pigs and we didn’t have bacon or pork, we didn’t have milk with meat. So I never had a cheeseburger or pepperoni pizza. And there were just very few types of animals we could eat. I really couldn’t eat any shellfish. We couldn’t eat lobster, clams, crabs, shrimp, any of that. So you know, what could we eat, you know, a little chicken, maybe a little fish. So I never really developed the taste that other people do like thinking these things are delicious. Which, what I want people to understand is if they are delicious, they’re delicious, because of what you put on the sugar, fat, and salt. I mean, if you like lobster, it’s because you dipping it in butter of high caloric density. If you like bacon, it’s because it’s cured in sugar, fat, and salt. Unless you’re a carnivore eating the animals, you know, uncooked, the reason you like animal products is because of how you cook them, and what you put on them. By themselve they’re not delicious, don’t believe me, then next time you see a cow go bite into it and knock yourself out because first of all, you don’t have the teeth to do it. And second of all, it would be disgusting and you wouldn’t like the way it tasted. So I think I was born vegan in my heart. But it wasn’t until the age of 17 when I went to the University of Pennsylvania and I can tell you the date. I call it my veganaversary and it’s coming up on 44 years September 1, and I stopped eating animals entirely and I would have done it sooner and I wish you know like going back in time I wish I would have stood up to my mother more but like I didn’t have any money.
厨师AJ:我应该想到米饭和豆子。但无论如何，你知道我不是在找借口。但44年仍然是一个灯塔很多动物没有被吃掉。我在宾夕法尼亚上大学，因为我的梦想是成为一名兽医。我总是开玩笑说，我变成了素食主义者，因为在工作的第一天，那个穿白大褂的医生给了我一缸活蝾螈，说我需要你把它们的头都砍下来。我想，为什么?他说，我们在做蛋白质晶体再生实验，蝾螈活着的时候占据了太多的空间。把头给我。我不想这么做，因为我记得小时候被人带着去钓鱼，我觉得这太残忍太奇怪了。我的意思是，我有点过敏，我不能，我几乎不能做血液测试，我不能，我只是不喜欢那样的事情。 So I did it once and I literally vomited. It was such a horrendous traumatic experience. I remember going to the Student Health Centre and then you know, I said to the doctor, I said, “no can do” and so they put me in the lab meaning I just washed things like for the rest of the semester, and then I transferred out of my major because I couldn’t dissect the cat. I couldn’t dissect the frog. I couldn’t, I couldn’t I mean, they were dead, by the way, the cat and then I even before PETA I just knew that somehow this was wrong. And but there was nobody else in the world to say you’re normal for thinking this right? And to me, thank god people like, you know, Neal Barnard, and others saying, “Yeah, this is barbaric. This is wrong. And, and it’s unnecessary”. That’s the other thing, so I never became a veterinarian. And yes, so that’s kind of my story became an ethical vegan. The problem was, and this is where it’s, I almost feel like I don’t fit into any group or any world because even though I am an ethical vegan, it’s funny that I mean, I wore this shirt today, just because it matched my shorts. I’m like, Oh, I got blue shorts, I gotta wear my shirt that says vegan, you know, compassion, all these things. I was a very unhealthy vegan. And it’s interesting because, in 1977, we didn’t even have the products that they have today. We didn’t have Beyond Meat, I don’t even know all the names, you know, all the cheeses and meats and milks, there was nothing, there was nothing as far as I can remember, except for because Seventh Day Adventists were vegetarian, they did have some canned meats from Loma Linda, which was like not that delicious, but I don’t remember there being the kind of products that they have today. So I could have technically done this healthfully, had I known more, you know, eating beans and rice and fruits and vegetables, but I became a junk food vegan. So basically, I was just omitting the animal products but not really eating healthy foods like fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and legumes I was having Coke slurpees for breakfast, which are vegan and Dr. Pepper, bagels for lunch, and french fries and potato chips and all kinds of really non-food items that lack fiber and nutrients. And unfortunately, I became obese close to 200 pounds. But more than that, because my blood tests were still pretty good. I didn’t have high cholesterol or high triglycerides or high blood pressure because I wasn’t eating animal products. But I developed what they call pre-colon cancer from eating a junk food vegan diet with no fiber, I really didn’t eat fiber till I was 43 years old. Like I didn’t get the memo that if you’re vegan or vegetarian, you’re supposed to eat fruits and vegetables. So my story is that I’m also an advocate for a healthy vegan diet. And I see that there is a place for these fake meats and cheeses, especially in the carnivore world really. But for people that especially have compromised health or excess weight or really trying to be healthy, these are not things we should base 100% of our diet on 100% of the time.
安娜:绝对的。我的意思是，听你讲述你从素食主义，纯素食主义，到真正的饮食转变的过程真的很有趣。你什么时候开始对当厨师感兴趣的?
厨师AJ:我是很搞笑，但这从来都不在我的任务清单上。我一直喜欢烹饪。我记得我七岁的时候在光明节得到了一个简易烤炉。我特别喜欢烘焙，因为我觉得烘焙很有意思，因为它比烹饪更有化学反应。我总是说烹饪更像是一门艺术，烘焙更像是一门科学。但是发生了什么是,当我前诊断,他们无法去除息肉,在常规的结肠镜检查,因为我的结肠和健康不良的混乱状态,他们说你要回来,有手术,我去一个地方称为最佳卫生研究所,他们教人们实际上你吃什么对你看起来感觉如何,有一个深远的影响疾病得到什么,最终疾病可以逆转。当我去那里的时候，我最终采用了可能是最严格的植物性饮食，100%生的，未煮的，低脂肪。我的意思是人们可以这样做，而且他们可以非常健康。但对我来说，这样的节食方法很难，我坚持了近六个月，大约两年时间不那么严格。当我回去做结肠镜检查时，我的结肠是透明的，干净的粉色血管，就像刚出生的婴儿。 The doctor said he accused me of having surgery. So I went to culinary school, just because the food didn’t taste very good. I was eating just like you know, like plain fruit plain vegetables and I’m like if I’m going to stick to this and not go back to slurpees and Dr. Peppers, things are gonna have to taste a little better. So I went to culinary school it was so funny because my first chef job, I mean, was $15 an hour which was like $35 less an hour than what I was making my other job you know, working it as an activity director in a Retirement Home. So it wasn’t that I was trying to become a chef, it was that I wanted the healthy food to taste better. And now it’s much easier, especially since the pandemic, everything I learned you pretty much can learn online.
安娜:是的,对的。我对两件事很好奇。第一，你是最近才进入厨师界的，但厨师界以男性主导而臭名昭著。所以我很好奇，首先，你有没有经历过那种，你知道，男性……
厨师AJ:我不知道我是否经历过这种攻击，但我有一个非常有趣的故事。所以当我工作的时候，你知道，有一段过渡时期，我还在和老人们一起工作。我不得不留着这份工作，因为厨师的工作没有薪水。当我和高年级学生一起工作的时候，附近有一家Jamba Juice，一个可以买冰沙的地方。所以当我把我的饮食从可乐思乐冰转变为一种真正健康的饮食，我早餐吃绿色冰沙或水果冰沙，因为它和工作是一致的。那里很吵，Jamba Juice，你知道，有六个搅拌机，他们说，你叫什么名字?我说，艾比，这是我的法定名字，艾比。他们说什么，我说艾比，然后说，AJ更容易，对吧?对高年级学生来说也比较容易，他们记不住艾比。但这条项链是有人送给我的。 This is AJ. And they could, it was just easier to remember AJ. And so that was my name, Chef AJ. And so when I applied for jobs, they didn’t know that I was female, which was to my advantage, because I would get there and they’d be like, oh, you’re female. What are they going to do, make me leave? Because then they’d be discriminating. So I’d still get to do my test day. Because when, I don’t know how it is now. But this was 2003. When you, I don’t want to say audition, that’s when you apply for chef jobs. Basically, you work again for free, and they see what you could do. But my work was good. And they hired me. So it actually worked to my advantage having initials instead of a name because they thought I was male.
安娜:这太有趣了，而且显然是毁灭性的。但至少你能成功穿过那扇门已经很了不起了。但我好奇的另一件事是自2003年以来，你有没有看到植物和植物制品在厨房中的作用发生了转变?
厨师AJ:绝对的。我认为，你知道，人们是被生意上卖的东西所激励的，你知道，你想要抨击所有的生意，但事实是，生意就是生意。我想是迈克尔·莫斯告诉我的。如果健康食品或植物性食品卖得好，他们就会把它留在菜单上，他们会这么做。举个例子，我记得在2000年的时候我们有过它，它们现在还在那里。这是一家餐馆，一家非常快，非常休闲的墨西哥餐厅，叫做Sharpies。它在南加州，我想他们在华盛顿和内华达州也有几家分店，我以前经常去那里吃墨西哥卷饼。他们大谈有机，但他们并不真正理解素食的含义。我去的时候，吃的基本上是豆子和米饭，然后回到家，里面会有奶酪、酸奶油或鱼。每次我都会打电话给CEO，他们会来送一个新的。 I’m like, David, just forget it. I’m not eating there anymore. You don’t understand. So it was an opportunity. I had him come to my class I educated him. And there it’s actually on the menu. Now the AJ burrito where it is like basically beans and rice and steamed broccoli and a little guacamole and pico de gallo which doesn’t have any edit oil. And like they finally got it right and because it’s a delicious burrito like you know, that’s why and so plant food can be anything. That’s weird because people eat plants, they don’t even realize it. You know, everybody loves guacamole. Everybody loves salsa. Everybody loves hummus. And everything that’s delicious about meat is the plants. So if you like wings, it’s not because it’s a chicken’s arm. It’s because you put in the ranch dressing or the barbecue sauce. Everything you like about the food is from the plants. And again, if you don’t believe me, then just start eating all your meat raw now. And you tell me how much you enjoy it don’t add any sugar, oil or salt. You’re going to hate it.
安娜:它是如此有趣。好了，我们来谈谈全植物性饮食方法。看看像麦克杜格尔医生这样的人，他对白淀粉的摄入相当宽松比如白米饭之类的。你是天然食品的绝对主义者吗?
厨师AJ:哦，这太有趣了，因为我的心属于麦克杜格尔博士因为我认为他帮助我理解了我现在所教的卡路里密度，并理解了，至少对我来说，是我饮食中的脂肪使我保持肥胖即使它来自于坚果，种子和牛油果等天然食物来源。我不骗你，我喜欢白米饭。我做的事。这是我的最爱，我每天都吃吗?不，但这是我的罪恶快感，我从不回避。但我也吃糙米、红米、黑米、藜麦、小米和其他谷物。我又不是坐在那里一天吃三次白米饭。我可能一周需要吃两次，有时一周吃三次，但作为健康膳食的一部分，和其他东西一起吃。我也吃白薯，但我最喜欢的食物是红薯，我知道在植物性饮食中，几乎所有人都认为红薯非常健康。所以我会说，如果我的饮食以淀粉为基础，那只是因为它是我的最爱。
安娜:正确的。我也是，我喜欢白米饭。那么我们刚才提到的以植物为基础的动物产品替代品呢，它们显然不如天然食品植物那么健康。
厨师AJ:这取决于一个人的目标是什么，我认为人们必须实事求是地对待自己的目标。你知道，这很有趣，因为人们说，哦，但我们需要它们作为过渡食物。这可能是绝对正确的。但我知道，有些纯素食者是100%的垃圾食品纯素食者，就像我一样，他们从来没有转变过，他们不吃任何水果和蔬菜。所以我认为你必须审视你饮食的整体，如果你每周去一次餐馆，只吃一个汉堡，我不认为这是世界末日。如果你有你想要的健康，这就是问题所在。再说一次，我不会告诉你，一个18岁的纯素食运动员，你知道，他没有体重问题。不，你不应该吃那个。我不是这个意思。但你知道，我已经60多岁了，和我一起工作过的大多数人都已经患有生活方式疾病了，对吧? They’re already significantly overweight, they probably have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, high triglycerides. So for this population, these are not necessarily the healthiest foods that are going to move the needle to get them where they want. So I tell people, what are your goals? And then we work within that parameter. I mean, I don’t think maybe if I knew I was gonna die, maybe I would taste them. But like, to me, I didn’t like animal products anyway, so I don’t want something that bleeds or looks like meat. It’s like for me, as a vegan. It’s like, That’s weird. Why would I want to eat a fake chicken wing or a fake burger? I mean, I do make burgers, don’t get me wrong, but they’re made out of sweet potatoes and rice and broccoli, things like that. They’re shaped like I don’t even like that we call them burgers. I mean, they should be called something else patties. And I don’t like the animals aren’t called what they are because people wouldn’t eat it. If they, you know, we’re eating pork No, you’re eating a pig. You’re eating bacon. No, you’re eating a pig. Let’s you know you’re not eating beef, you’re eating the cow. See, they trick you by doing that, for some reason chicken, we still call chicken. I don’t know how chicken and fish that, you know, got through that way. But the other animals, we don’t call it animals. We call it something else that confuses people. And I think if children knew what they were eating, you know, I don’t want to torture children and have been seen Earthlings when they’re four years old. I think a lot of that a lot more kids wouldn’t eat animals if they knew where they came from. By the time they figure it out, those tastes are set, you know, people’s tastes get set, and they get very stubborn about giving them up.
安娜:你是绝对正确的。对你和我来说，这也取决于父母的做法和他们的答案。是的，我认为这是一个非常好的观点。但是想想食物的形式，作为一个厨师，我们知道改变状态，你知道，一种谷物或混合一种水果，你知道，做一个冰沙或任何改变身体的吸收方式，以及身体的反应方式。所以你可能会出现血糖峰值之类的情况。但是很明显，对于厨师来说，改变食物的形状是一个非常强大的工具，可以改变味道，改变人们与你所做食物的互动方式。你会考虑食物形态对你的菜肴的影响吗?
厨师AJ:这要看是给谁做的。因为很多时候我被麦克杜格尔医生这样的医生雇来教他的项目，然后我就有了我必须工作的参数。我想我所做的只是做适合所有人的美味食谱。正确的。但我认为，对于那些没有健康问题的人，或者他们没有体重问题，或者他们有体重问题，但他们对减肥不感兴趣，那么我认为更灵活的方法是可行的。我说过的话，我希望我能，我要被火化了。但如果我被埋葬了，我要把这句话刻在我的墓碑上。因为我从第一天起就一直这么说，因为人们说，哦，她太拘谨了。不。我说的是，首先，你的目标是什么，然后我说，做你能做的限制最少的饮食，但这将会达到你想要的结果。 But you can’t, you can’t expect that if you do like my junk food vegan diet that I had, you know, in the 70s to have stellar health and an ideal weight unless you’re, you know, genetically very unusual. So what is the least restrictive diet you can do, but that’s going to give you the results you seek. And many people seek a vegan diet, not just for improvement of health, a reversal of disease, because they find that it gives them just so much more energy, they feel better on that. And there’s so many versions of the vegan diet, as you know, and, you know, I’m just happy when people are vegan. I also and this is another thing and this is where I get a lot criticized a lot. You know, because I never fat shame anybody. I was fat for 52 years. The thing is, is I think if you’re a vegan advocate, you want to try to look as good as you can, because they’re always pointing the finger at you. Like there’s I don’t even want to give them dignity to say their name. But there’s this horrible YouTube channel that’s basically anti-vegan, that will take people that are successful in the vegan world and they’ll like they’ll take the worst picture they can have us like you know, sometimes like when YouTube like you might look kind of weird like and they’ll say, look, look how horrible this person is because they’re vegan. So I think that if you are an advocate you want to try to be the best-spoken person. To be healthy doesn’t necessarily mean to be good. It just means to look as healthy as you can and feel as healthy as you can. Because I think that is attractive to people that we’re trying to bring in. And that’s why it’s so cool when you see these of these older people, like, especially women, because you know, women, when they get older, they don’t all everybody, but it gets older, we get wrinkles, you know, things like that, but to see people like, you know, Victoria Moran in her 70s, Linda Middlesworth, who’s almost 80, these are people that have been long-term vegans. And I mean, they look 2030 years younger than their age. And you can say it’s genetics a little bit, but we know that what we eat has a profound effect, because I’ve gotten, I don’t want to say I’ve gotten better looking, but I look at younger pictures, and my skin has gotten better, just things, I think I’m aging better than a lot of people my age or people in my family. So you know, again, I think eating plants is the best thing you can do. But eating whole plants is perhaps even better for your health and longevity. But again, it depends on your goals of just I’m so happy when people want to be vegan. Also, I don’t want people to get sick. Ana, this is what I worry about people follow the junk food vegan diet like I did, there’s a greater chance that they could end up with a lifestyle disease, either because they’re missing some nutrients because they’re not like me, or eating any fiber, or because you know, they could get some disease, and then they go to your doctor, they go to their doctor, and most doctors are plant-based unless you seek them out there. Oh, see, it’s because of the vegan diet. So, you know, whatever you do, just eat a lot of fruits and vegetables, and do that as well. That’s what I tell you.
安娜:我有个问题要问你，我想我知道答案。但是你知道，我们即将开始这个主题周，我们将讨论食物的未来。当我们思考未来的食物，或者我们未来的食物系统会是什么样子的时候，人工养殖的肉类总是排在第一位。那么，你会请一个烹饪人造肉的厨师吗?
厨师AJ:你知道，我不想，我的意思是，我认为这很好，因为，再一次，你没有伤害动物。如果你能以低于肉类的价格生产它看起来像我，吃起来像肉类。我只是，这让我觉得毛骨悚然。我从来不喜欢那种口感。这太让人想起了。所以我不会这么做。但我的意思是，我有其他所有可以搭配的菜。举个例子，如果我想吃鸡肉，我就会放菠萝蜜，就像它有那种味道一样，所以我宁愿用植物。但是，我并没有抨击这些人，或者我认为他们这样做是为了服务于他们的人，这很好。但是对我来说，肉的类似物，尤其是当他们把它做成像虾一样的东西放在那里的时候他们会让我觉得很恐怖，这只是那只是我。 But if you like it, please eat it. You know, because it’s always better than eating an animal. But I think eating a whole plant is probably better than eating a processed plant. For most people most of the time.
安娜:我完全同意你的看法。但我认为对很多人来说。你知道，包括我的朋友和家人在内，很难想象一个没有肉和鱼的世界。我认为很大程度上是因为传统和文化。甚至像我这样一个素食主义者去巴黎。你知道，到处都能看到羊角面包和各式各样的糕点。从某种程度上来说，错过这一点有点可悲。你认为以植物为基础的厨师有责任重新诠释这些传统菜肴吗?
厨师AJ:如果这是他们想做的，那很好。我认为你在巴黎看到的所有东西都可以用植物制成。我从来没去过那里。但我的意思是，你可以把所有的东西都做成素食，有些人可以也许我不能，但是有一些有才华的厨师可以做任何你能做的东西，他们都可以做成素食。我认为他们中的很多人，甚至那些不是素食主义者的人，都变得越来越感兴趣，就像纽约的那位厨师，他把整个餐厅都变成了素食主义者。他甚至不是那样的素食主义者。所以我认为这是有可能的，也是有希望的。
安娜:是的，我认为尽管我们有这些可以依靠的古老传统和文化，你知道，肉类和乳制品，我们正在看到变化，就像你提到的丹尼尔·胡姆和麦迪逊公园11号餐厅，然后我们也有纽约时报的食品通讯现在变成了素食/纯素食。然后我们有一个在线网站，Epicurious，我不知道你们是否熟悉这个网站，他们决定不再发布任何包含牛肉的新食谱。
厨师AJ:是啊，这不是时候了吗?你知道，我们不得不等待，这很令人难过，你知道，对我来说，只是我理解全球变暖和它有多可怕，如果没有这种担心，有些人不会成为素食主义者。但让我难过的是，动物被折磨和虐待是远远不够的对人来说还不够，你明白我的意思吗?我觉得很奇怪，为什么人们会认为这是可以接受的。我不是说，如果你在坦桑尼亚，你是狩猎采集部落的一员，比如哈扎人，我不是说他们自己捕猎动物之类的东西。但如果你住在美国，或者世界上其他任何地方，我的意思是，事实是人们只是认为这些工厂化农场多年来发生的事情是可以接受的，然后你就会有，我知道有两种人，一种是根本不在乎的，你不会去改变他们，因为你无法在他们没有同情心的时候给予他们同情。还有那些根本不想知道的人。是的，你知道，我认为全球变暖是一个警钟因为人们将不得不知道，你知道，就像保罗·麦卡特尼说的，很多年以前，如果屠宰场有窗户，每个人都会是素食主义者。人们已经把头埋在沙子里太久了。而且，你知道，我们一直是疯狂的素食主义者，当它，我不知道，我们是真正拯救世界的人，一次吃一口。
安娜:是的。我认为很有趣的是，关于健康的争论似乎被埋没了。我觉得发生了什么，你知道，像麦克杜格尔的信息，和其他以天然食品植物为基础的信息我们就像，我不知道，肉类和乳制品行业有点推动这些不同的议程，但你有生酮，你有所有其他的，你知道，饮食选择背后有很多重量和金钱试图引起混乱当你在谷歌，你知道，什么是正确的饮食。
厨师AJ:别忘了制药行业，他们玩弄的人，因为人们想要什么，他们不理解。我曾经在一个讲座上说过，我实际上是在一所医学院讲课，信不信由你，那个人说，这不是真的。然后我得到了所有的研究证明这是真的，医学院的课程是由制药工业控制的。所以如果人们更健康，他们就不需要那么多的药物。我喜欢金·威廉姆斯博士，他是美国心脏病学会的前任主席，他说有两种心脏病专家，素食主义者和那些没有读过数据的人。所以，你知道，我们的整个医疗系统并不是一个医疗系统。这是一个病态的医疗系统。它建立在药物和程序的基础上。所以如果人们像我们一样吃，死于心脏病和其他疾病的人就会少很多。也不是说医生会倒闭。 That’s the thing people have to reinvent themselves and, and do more of lifestyle medicine, for example. And, you know, like, obviously, people have to feed their families. So what are farmers going to do? You know, like, they’re not all going to do like Howard Lyman, The Mad Cowboy, but you know, they need some, either education or some programs because you can’t just like just say, Okay, I’m vegan. Now, what am I going to do with all these cows, they need help to help these people that want to do it, because a lot of them, I mean, I know people that like, are higher-ups in companies like soda and sugar companies that are completely against sugar, but they privately but they still sell these products, because it’s their job, right. And they don’t know how to get another job that will pay that. And so I think we have to find ways to help people that way, you know, because, I mean, if agriculture, animal agriculture, I could wave a magic wand and just shut it down, or at least shut down the dairy industry, there’s a lot of jobs that are going to be lost, right? And so somebody that’s much smarter than me, and economics is going to have to figure out how to make that transition because it is just so bizarre. I, I don’t know if reincarnation, you know, is real. But if it is I hope that if I come back, you know, I’ll come back at a time where we look back at animal agriculture, like we do now. I mean, like people, I mean, I’m sure there’s still child labor in parts of the world. I don’t know how the whole world operates. But as far as I know, at least in the United States, it’s against the law, you know, things like slavery, it may exist, but for the most part, at least here, it’s against the law. And I’m hoping that one day when our descendants look back, they’re gonna say, Can you believe that they had these things called dairy farms, you know, because it’s so cruel. And I just think people just need to be educated, you know, if people knew that their milk contains so many parts per million of blood plus and feces, there are people that might not drink it anymore, you know, but people, you know, they say, ignorance is bliss. And the thing is, is the people, like I say, they either don’t care or they don’t want to know, but we’ve got to find a way to get them to look at the evidence. And because once you see it, you cannot unsee it.
安娜:是的，但我也认为，决策者和政策制定者的角色是这样的，你知道，来自高层的，来自政府的，把这些事情落实到位，而不是把责任完全放在那些可能没有权限的个人身上。我的意思是，很多人没有，你知道，没有机会或不知道如何生活一个健康的，难以置信的饮食，几乎没有钱，你知道，只是买土豆和西兰花。
厨师AJ:或者他们不认为这是健康的，因为他们被告知。你可能对米尔顿·米尔斯博士很熟悉，他说美国的饮食指南是有种族偏见的，你知道，学校的牛奶是有补贴的。好像他们必须得有，但不，不，你不需要。但是你知道，你知道，现在你可以买到豆浆，但是你知道吗，你总是要它。不，这应该是默认值。如果你想要牛奶，他们应该向你要。也许你会从他们的医生那里得到一张便条，说没关系。
安娜:嗯,对的,没错。你对食物的未来以及我们与食物的关系有什么看法?
厨师AJ:好吧，我想看到一个每个人都有足够的钱的世界。我认为，如果人们都是素食主义者，我们就会有足够的食物，因为我们生产肉类所需的土地和水可以填满，我们可以养活整个世界。因此为确保足够的食物给每个人人们可以负担得起的价格如果会有补贴,无论是对于健康的豆子和大米和水果和蔬菜,你知道的,让那些美元走的更远,让世界至少是公平的,所以事情成本他们真正成本,我们不支付,你知道,4美元一头有机花椰菜,但支付,你知道,49美分一个芝士汉堡让它是公平的,你知道,这是不公平的,现在。
安娜:不，现在不公平。你是绝对正确的。这绝对是我想看到的未来。所以我有一些有争议的事情。你对蓝色区域很熟悉吗?
厨师AJ:是的。我采访了丹·比特纳。
安娜:是的。是的。很明显，你和洛玛·琳达互动过，她是蓝色区域之一。
厨师AJ:是的，它就像一个机构。那么多优秀的医生在那里行医。
安娜:太棒了。是的。对于那些不知道的人来说，蓝色区域是指世界上那些人们健康长寿到几百岁的地区。丹·比特纳(Dan Buettner)进行了一项伟大的研究，并继续与《国家地理》(National Geographic)和他的公司“蓝色地带”(Blue Zones)合作。我很好奇你怎么看丹·比特纳说我们应该在饮食中摄入的两种主要食物是油和少量酒精。你认为这是健康饮食的一部分吗?
厨师AJ:嗯，你知道，我认为他是一个了不起的人，做出了了不起的贡献，但我不认为他是一个医生。我听从医生的话，世界卫生组织说，无论喝多少酒都是不安全的。我不知道蓝色区域的人长寿的原因是不是因为酒精和石油，冲绳人喝酒吗，我不知道，问题是，我看到的是，当我看到蓝色区域的时候，他们真正的优势是大多数美国人没有的，特别是在疫情是亲密的人际关系的情况下。至少在美国，人们似乎没有这种能力。我认为这是一个长寿的因素，就像喝酒和吃油的潜力一样重要，你知道，向埃塞尔斯丁医生询问这个问题会很有趣，你知道，他能逆转心脏病，但酒精是一种毒素。它对身体的每个细胞都是有毒的。你知道，我的意思是，如果你的家人，像我一样被酒驾司机撞了，你对酒精有不同的看法，那么可能有人会觉得他们必须在饮食中摄入酒精。这是一种极易上瘾的物质。我不，我觉得没有，我不想说没有它的位置。但我看不出有什么原因。 You know, it, it’s, it doesn’t exist in nature. Our ancestors didn’t drink it throughout much of human history. It’s very calorically dense. It’s linked to every kind of cancer. So I have a really hard time believing that the consumption of alcohol, I mean, he is he’s saying that based on his work, or actual scientific studies, I don’t know. I feel like if you don’t drink, that would be not a good reason to start. I think I’d like to see more evidence on it. But I have seen, I can just say that I’ve seen more lives destroyed by alcohol, then that helped by alcohol. So that’s what I would say to that. As far as oil, you know, it’s been, again, the poison is in the dose. So are we talking about somebody that has a glass of champagne on their birthday and New Year’s Eve? Or are we talking about somebody to drinks every single day, so that that would also be a factor, but with oil? You know, again, I don’t see how, whether you believe in God or nature or whatever, why a highly processed food like oil and alcohol would be the secret to longevity, when I feel that what Jack Lalanne said over 80 years ago, is which is if God made it eat it, if man made it, don’t eat it. There’s no oil in nature. There’s no alcohol in nature. And I believe what I’ve heard many times said that whenever you have a question, always look to nature. There is no alcohol in nature. Unless a, you know, I guess a piece of fruit could fall down and get rotten. There could be an alcohol-like effect, or, you know, there’s no oil in nature, you can’t make oil. And I also think that, and this is why I don’t understand people promoting oil, especially in the United States, where 70 percent of the population is overweight and 40 percent are obese. It’s the most calorically dense thing on the planet. I don’t call it a food, it’s 4,000 calories a pound. If there was anything in oil that you needed, wouldn’t it be in the whole foods? So if you feel like there’s something in olive oil that’s beneficial to your health? Why wouldn’t it be in the olive that had the fiber and water and vitamins and minerals and tap or felt coconut oil? Why wouldn’t it be in the coconut oil or if it was in the flaxseed oil in the flax so I feel that it’s always better to eat the whole food rather than the processed food. It’s more calorically dilute but also more nutrient-rich. So as much as I like and respect his work, I don’t agree with him on that, again, not a doctor, but it’d be interesting to see what the doctors say about that. At least the ones in the circles I travel with, none of them are promoting oil or alcohol, especially to patients that have a lifestyle disease and those that are overweight or have heart disease.
安娜:伟大的回答。好的。我知道。我们就像你进入了时间，你还有另一个节目要做。但如果可以的话，我有几个速战速决的问题要问你。
厨师AJ:当然，我有充足的时间。
安娜:好的。显然，这是出了名的困难，我在媒体领域，我们写了很多文章，我们创造了很多内容。要让一个人变成素食主义者是非常困难的，仅仅通过和他们交谈，对吧?但作为一名厨师，你还有另一个神奇的工具。我想知道你是否曾经通过给别人做一顿植物性食物让他们变成纯素食主义者?
厨师AJ:你知道吗，真正有趣的是，当你问我作为一个女性厨师是怎么回事时，他们甚至不知道这是素食。很酷的是，主要的甜点非常好吃，他们雇用了我，这不是一家素食餐厅。所以我不知道我是否因为我的花生酱巧克力芝士蛋糕或我的德国巧克力蛋糕而改变了任何人的素食主义。但我认为这确实帮助他们意识到食物可以有味道，非常棒的素食，我住在洛杉矶时，有名人客户总是为我点这些甜点。所以，你知道，我有过吗?我试着去想，因为，你知道，这很有趣，因为我认为大多数人都是通过减肥转变为素食主义的，因为减肥是人们的首要个人目标，尤其是女性。通过告诉他们我所知道的关于卡路里密度的知识，我想这就是我如何改变了更多的人，尤其是女性，因为她们自己也希望这样。还有改善健康，但很遗憾，更多的人想减肥而不是健康，但你可以通过全植物性饮食实现这两者。至少对我来说，我试着把食谱做得像你说的那样，好吃，不管你是不是想减肥，不管你吃的是植物性食物。我不希望他们觉得，哦，这很好，但是你知道，我只是想让食物对每个人来说都好吃。 And I tested on people that are not vegan, and then if they don’t like, it’s probably not going to be good for anybody.
安娜:是的。对我来说，这也是可持续的。当你吃这种饮食时。这不是传统意义上的饮食。这只是你吃的食物，你知道，你不会变得不健康。
厨师AJ:我不觉得这是节食。你知道，就像我说的，我的意思是像福尔曼博士这样的人来我家吃饭。我们的方式差不多我觉得他从来没有节食过只是我们也喜欢我们的食物。这是另一件事，你知道，当我们没有真正谈论太多的时候。但人们这样吃的原因之一，无论是动物产品，尤其是乳制品，还是加工食品，都是因为它会上瘾。所以大多数人都对糖、脂肪和盐上瘾，我们的基因决定了我们为了生存更喜欢糖、脂肪和盐的味道，但我们应该以完整的食物形式摄入它们。牛油果不是牛油果油。你知道，我们的盐来自吃绿色蔬菜，糖来自水果。所以我们应该为了生存而喜欢这些东西。 But the processed food industry hijacked our taste buds and our brain chemistry, making these types of palatable foods, whether they’re vegan or not vegan. And that’s really part of the problem is the food addiction piece. And that’s why people I think, have such a hard time transitioning to whole foods because of this addiction piece. And that’s kind of what I’ve been talking about for about 10 years now. And again, a lot of people don’t want to hear that because, you know, Dr. McDougall says people want good news about their bad habits. They don’t want bad news about them.
安娜:所以对我来说，从我的饮食中去除油脂是改变我生活的一件事。我想让每个人，你知道，这是我喜欢的一件事，我不在乎你是素食主义者，素食主义者，无论如何，只要去除油脂。如果有一件事你可以说服人们，那会是什么?
厨师AJ:是的，排在第二位的是石油，但我认为乳制品是第一位的。你说得太对了，因为这就是个骗局。我的意思是，这真的是营销战胜了科学。当你在寻找饮食的时候，如果你是一个患有痤疮的人，痤疮很快就会消失，你的皮肤会改善，你的体重会稳定下来如果你是一个与痤疮作斗争的人，但我会先说乳制品，因为对我来说，乳制品太容易上瘾了，正如你们从酪啡肽中知道的，奶牛很痛苦，我的意思是所有的动物在工化农场或几乎所有被杀死作为食物的动物都很痛苦。但我认为奶牛受到的影响尤其严重，鸡也一样。但乳制品实在是太没必要了。这对健康不是必需的，除非你是一个婴儿，你需要你母亲的奶。你只能从你的母亲和你的物种那里喝奶。认为上帝或大自然为了我们的健康而设计我们，让我们依赖另一个物种，这是世界上最可笑的事情。我的意思是，这是没有意义的人们认为这是钙的来源，不，你从蔬菜中获取钙。 You don’t get it from stealing the food of a baby calf that now is going to become veal because you took the milk. I mean, it’s just it’s bizarre, but also so many health conditions are linked to dairy. They’re thinking that type one diabetes, for example, that people are getting from that all the reproductive cancers, like breast, prostate and ovarian and uterine cancer link because people don’t realize that it’s not like farmer john, who has Bessie in the yard, and he’s milking her and you’re getting the milk. No, they’re giving these dairy cows, well they’re giving all animals for food massive doses of antibiotics, first of all, which is why so many people like when we have a pandemic are resistant to antibiotics because if you’ve been eating milk, or meat, your whole life, every time you ingest these, you’re taking antibiotics, because otherwise if the cows or the other animals were sick, they can’t sell them for you for food. But also in the case of dairy, you’re giving them massive doses of hormones, because cows are not supposed to be pregnant and producing milk at the same time. But they do this in a very unnatural way. So they’re getting massive doses of hormones, which is why if you have a daughter, she’s not getting her period at 15, 16, and 17 like you’re supposed to with nature, she’s getting it at eight, nine, and 10 now, and you know kids like with ear infections and things like that when they remove dairy. So not only is it addictive, it’s really detrimental to your health. So if I had the magic wand and I could just let everybody be vegan, I would say just take dairy out. And if you want that flavor I mean, like Miyoko’s Creamery, you can get every kind of cheese, it will taste like it, it won’t have that addictive component. So that’s what you’re you’re looking for though, which you can get other ways which you can get used to not having your food be a drug. That’s what I would do is I would take dairy out and let the cows be mothers to their calves.
安娜:嗯,同意。我们将在石油和乳制品方面开展合作。最后，作为一名有经验的厨师，你对烹饪无油、植物性的天然食物有什么建议吗?
厨师AJ:拥有一个空气炸锅。空气炸锅改变了游戏规则。我也喜欢我的快煲电压力锅。但是你知道，尤其是没有油的，我的意思是，空气炸锅里的薯条比浸泡在油和盐里的要好。我甚至有专业的切割师。在亚马逊上花50美元就能让它们看起来和餐馆里的一模一样。我是说，空气炸锅婴儿，如果你能买得起布雷维尔我从他们那里拿不到钱。他们甚至不回我的电话或邮件，不过这是最棒的，你可以做任何事，就连你不喜欢的蔬菜都可以用空气炸锅做，这很神奇。它使食物变得松脆可口。你不需要油。 And it was a game-changer. Because back in the day, they weren’t available for home use, and the ones that the restaurants were several $1,000. So from anywhere from $39 for a teeny tiny one at Walmart at the top of the line and a Breville for $399. And you can have crunchy food with no oil and it’s in I think you probably like better because it won’t upset your stomach.
安娜:我去拿个空气炸锅。我把我的东西和一点苹果醋放在烤箱里，看看会发生什么。
厨师AJ:我是说，烤箱也可以。我的意思是，如果空气炸锅更快一点，用更小的单位。我住在我住的地方沙漠里。我不想把烤箱打开，但我觉得这会让很多人很高兴吃到，脆脆的薯条。
安娜:太棒了。我很想尝试一下。最后，我们的听众或观众应该到哪里去了解你在做什么以及接下来会发生什么。
厨师AJ:肯定的。我的网站是我的名字，chefaj.com。但我每天在太平洋时间上午11点在YouTube上做一个每日直播节目，我们正在谈论的时间是620。我通常会邀请像你这样有趣的嘉宾，你很快就要上节目了。很多厨师在做示范，很多植物医学医生，或者有时只是我觉得有趣的主题的作者。你可以成为我称之为Zoom-unity的一部分，因为我在聊天中实时回答问题，你可以向演讲者提问，每天与人们互动非常有趣。
安娜:太棒了。非常感谢你今早抽出时间来，AJ主厨，我们真的很感激。
厨师AJ:谢谢你！
